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Created: 05/03/2013 After a two-years, Caroline McCarthy finally makes her return to the show to tell us about her time at Google and why she did the impossible and left.
-Whats up, everybody? Its Friday, May 3, 2013. Thanks for tuning in to the 404 Show. Im Jeff Bakalar. -Im Justin Yu. -Im Ariel NuÃez. -Welcome to the program. This is a big week because yesterday we had the great Marc Maron. Today we have someone who has not been on this program for the last 2 years literally to the date almost. -Yes. -Very, very happy to welcome back to the show, Caroline McCarthy. Whats up, Caroline? -Life is good. -Life is good. -Im excited to be here. -Thanks so much for doing this because weve been trying to do this for a while. -Yes, I know and it was like, I was like guys Ive got a like a corporate job. Now I cant just leave to go on air and you know kind of just you know shoot the breeze with you guys. -Yes. -But now I am self-employed. I am independent. I get to make my own schedule and its awesome. -Youre living the freaking dream. -Well, only if I can come and be on the show more often. -You swear because Im not-- -Like I swear. -Gonna lie. -I swear. -I can get a little personal here. I feel like at one point, not that youre avoiding us. -I wasnt avoiding you. -No, no, no. -Im just never a morning gal. -Of course not and Im not implying that. -Yes. -Because weve always been good buds. -Oh yes. And I mean you guys are like-- I mean youre super legit now. You got you know crazy guests on the air like I remember seeing stuff on Facebook where I was like, What, theyve got him on? Yes, Id like-- there was somebody recently someone who-- -Well I was like freaking out about Marc Maron yesterday. -That was cool. -Yes. But there is somebody a couple of months ago whom I was just like-- -Danny DeVito at CES? -Okay. It wasnt Danny DeVito. It was-- shoot, somebody from some movie or like-- oh, the Super Troopers guy. -Oh, oh, Kevin Heffernan and Jay Chandrasekhar. -Yes. That was awesome. -That was really cool. That Justin learned about Super Troopers that week. -Wait. You didnt know about Super Troopers? -I hadnt watched it before so thats why I didnt participate in the interview and then that night I watched it on Jeffs recommendation. -And hes like damn it. -And I was like wow, that movie is hilarious. Its funny because I tried watching it when I was in high school and I didnt think it was funny. -Yes. -So some things must have changed in my sense of humor since then. -Yes. You started doing drugs. -Yes. And now I think its hilarious. -Yes. There were definitely things when I think I saw that. I must have been in high school and I just didnt get it or I think it was-- that movie if you dont start it from the beginning-- -Yes. -It is not easy to get kind of in the middle of because you just dont get anything. -Right. -But I think the more you see it, the funnier it gets. -Its totally true. Absolutely. A lot of films are like that because you kind of you form your own little inside joke with the movie itself. -Yes, exactly. -And that film is filled with those. -Yes. I recently, I wrote kind of a personal essay like I think it was 2 months ago when I realized that Old School had just hit theatres about 10 years ago. -Yes. I read that. -And wow. I mean like that movie is so much if you were in college or I would say even in high school at the time when that came out, there are like so many things that you sort of personally connect to. -Sure. -And I think the movie was kind of structured that way. -Right. -Its kind of genius. -Yes. Whats amazing about that one is you sort of watch it and no one has a cellphone really in that movie. -No. -Yes, which is weird and now cellphones are so pivotal in films. -Its funny because they dont, at the same time they dont really make a big deal out of what time the movie was made in. -Right. -They dont talk but there are no sort of or not I would say probably way fewer than one we would expect kind of pop culture references they put it in 2003. -Yes. -And the only, they dont kind of like 80s up. -Sure. -The college backgrounds that the guys are constantly alluding to. -Yes. -I think they mentioned White Snake like twice in that set. -Right and its yes, with Will Ferrells character but they do and yes youre right. Its sort of like this Evergreen thing where its timeless. -Its very Evergreen. -Yes. -Its very Evergreen. -For sure. So youve been up to some stuff huh? -Yes. I went and I worked at Google for 2 years and I learned a ton and met some ntastic people. -What was that like? -I mean its Google. Speaking of Vince Vaughn movies theres about to be one about Google. -All right. -So you were around when they were shooting that. -Yes. I actually-- there is a chance that I am in some overhead shots. -Oh, okay. Cool. -Because they were shooting at the Mountain View headquarters and I happen to be out there that week. -Yes. -And there was one time when I was trying to get from one building to the next when I was actually riding one of the G-Bikes they call them, which was just Im an absolute disaster on those things because there are these like primary colored cruiser bikes-- -Yes. -And sometimes the tires arent really fully inflated and youre like dodging you know people staring at their phones and its kind of hazardous. -Yes. -And someone stopped me and they were like you can keep riding. Just dont look up and just keep doing what youre doing. And I was like oh okay. And they were filming it, filming it overhead of the Google campus-- -Yes. -From a helicopter. -Oh my God. -And so if thats in the movie and theres some like girl with a gray backpack on a bike going like this who would probably smash against people because Im terrible at riding those bikes, that might be me. -Oh, man. -But there actually maybe more than one person that fits that description. -Because no one could read these bikes at Google like-- -Well, I think people who rode them regularly got used to them. The New York office we did not have bikes when I was based in New York and but then the Mountain View office, the G-Bikes were a way of life. -So it sounds like theres a big difference in size between the Mountain View campus versus New York. -Yes. -Is it just one building in New York? -In New York it is-- -Oh, its by Chelsea Market. -Yes, well there are I think 2 floors of Chelsea Market and then Google owns and theres now a big Google sign outside of it. Google owns that building, the old port authority building. And so-- -And the subway beneath it and the 5 miles of earth below that. -And the alligators in the sewers. -Did I read something online about hidden meeting rooms that exist in the New York Google office? -Yes. There are actually. -Like pull a book. -Yes. -Well theyre not really meeting rooms. Theyre more like study rooms or like kind of quiet workrooms, but theres a room on the 5th floor called the Library which has been kind of a big focus of journalists whove written about like you know Google, New York this. You know theyd say really cool design sort of almost Steampunk sort of library. Looks like a traditional library, what appear to be old paintings on the wall but theyre actually you know Steampunk paintings of like Darth Vader like wearing a suit and tie and things like that. -Nice. -But then in the back, there are these bookcases that rotate and you actually like its not as much of a surprise anymore because people would, when they had friends visiting Google, theyd be like oh you gotta see the library, you gotta see the hidden rooms and they went like pushed the bookcase and they would disturb somebody so now there are signs that you can flip around and say like this is empty or like please do not disturb. -Oh, okay. -And its a really cool setup though and it just makes the whole office, the whole atmosphere a way more playful. I mean theres another part of the office, theres a ladder going from the 4th floor to the 5th floor. Its great. -Huh. No fireman pole? -No. -I feel like they just need that. -I dont know. I feel like that would be like injury city. -Yes? -Yes. -Yes, I go. -Yes. -So you know now I wanted you to talk a little bit about what you actually did at Google because whenever I heard the title Ill be like that sounds important. -So I was in Googles business marketing department-- -Yes. -Which does all of Googles work with brands with advertisers, other things like that. -Right. -And when I was hired I was in charge of some of the long-form content that is part of Googles think hub. -Okay. Yes. -And if you go-- listeners, if you go to ThinkWithGoogle.com you can see how thats unfolded over the past couple of years. I helped them launched that. We did a printed publication at the time, but we found that actually people you know dont, people dont find it that much of a novelty to have print contents so now its all digital. -Yes. -And then but anyways its really cool stuff, a really interesting spin on marketing insights, and one thing that they actually published recently I had no idea that Dumb Ways to Die was actually an ad campaign. -Really? -Yes. It is an Australian public service announcement campaign. -Wait. Dumb Ways, that has nothing to do with the Darwin Awards, right? -No. -Okay. -Well, I dont know. Maybe it does. -So it sounds like the same. -If you go to ThinkWithGoogle.com, its one of the more recent things theyve written about. It shows what kind of awesome stuff Think With Google does. -Sure. -There is something about Dumb Ways to Die and how it was an ad agency created it for a public safety campaign. -Cool. -Yes. -And so then I also did, I did some work doing in marketing and industry partnerships for Google Hangouts-- -Oh, okay. Cool. -Which youre like getting you know getting hangouts incorporated into big industry conferences. -Yes. -At CES, the reason why I couldnt hang out with you, guys, is because I was running a video studio of our own with kind of we would bring people who are kind of on the ad side and have them talk about, have them do hangouts with their brands and stuff behind geared toward more of creative audience. So it was really fun. -Yes. -I missed writing though and I missed kind of being able to pick and choose my projects because obviously Google there one it was like tens of thousands of people. -Yes. -And so Im doing my own thing now. -Right on. -Those guys say its like man leaving Google. -Yes. Its hard. -Yes. -Its definitely hard because they treat you really, really well. -Sure. -Its a great company. -Yes. You had to like hand in your porcelain, your golden-- -I had to hands in my Google Glass. -Oh, man. That must have been really bittersweet. -It was pretty bittersweet. It was still early enough in the kind of Glass evolution. -Right. -That I hadnt had it in my possession for long enough and theres like some of the apps that youre hearing about now like we didnt have access to those yet, so it was not quite as noteworthy as it is now, but I mean it was funny and even like if you wore it around, its like there hadnt been so much press in the mainstream about Glass yet so I think that people thought I was wearing like something to correct like a visual impairment-- -Right, right. -And stuff like that. And so it was like oh ncy monocle. -So were you allowed to talk about it when people asked you what that thing was on your ce? -There were like things we were allowed to say and things were not allowed to say, things that we were not allowed to say even if we were joking because they could be like really badly misconstrued. They were pretty careful about it because they didnt want people to like hear one thing and jump to conclusions. But yes, we were able to say that. You know its a new project by Google called Glass, kind of a new way of interacting with your personal technology and it was fun to be a tester. -Yes. -There are no glass in Google Glass? -I dont know what the thing is actually made of. -Right. That cant be glass. Is it? Maybe. Maybe the switch or the-- -Maybe the little, like maybe its some kind of glass. -Yes. Maybe where its being projected. -Potentially, Im not sure. -Possibly. So how did you get along with it? Did you like well you tried it on, what was that, Tuesday we had in the studio? What did you think of it? -So again like I mean the software was pretty limited when I got it. I could take pictures of my cat which was wonderful. -Important. -And I could also, the one thing that I found was very, very helpful was that you could ask it for directions. -Yes. -Because when youre like walking down the street and you realized, you know, crap, Im in a neighborhood that I dont know that much about. -Right. -I need to get to this place. You could just say you know, Okay, Glass, take me here. -Yes. -And that was if it had been better at recognizing my voice which I think voice recognition technology is something you personally have to get used to because this is not a Google thing like across the board there are a lot of these. -Right. You just have to know how to talk to it. -You just have to know how to talk to it. I never wore it in the shower. -What is that? So but is it waterproof I guess. -I dont think it is. Maybe. I had-- -It should be. -I mean I wore it while running once and you can wear it while running and its relatively sweat-proof but I would not take it in the shower. -Yes. -I dont know. Maybe its good with Photoshop it onto his ce. -Yes. Meanwhile, have you freaking seen this video? This guy beating me to it. -Oh, the hockey guy, yes. -Son of a . -Which one? -This guy already-- Ive said I wanna wear these things playing ice hockey. -Oh. -You saw it. Everyone has seen this freaking video now. -Yes. Oh, I havent seen it. -Hes not even good. -Oh. -Oh. -Well, whats it like to walk around-- I mean you mentioned the directions thing. Whats it like to walk around and have that screen? Do you focus on one at a time or you kind of looking at what real life in your peripheral vision? How does that work? -Youre kind of looking up with one eye, and actually I thought the intece handled it very well with being able to you know keep a focus on whats actually happening in front of you, but then also to be able to kind of glance on the Glass. -Yes. -Yes. -I cant wait until the Bike Share program comes out this summer. -Oh my God. -And the next summer when Google Glass will come out and people use them both at the same time. Theres gonna be a lot of deaths in New York too. -Oh my God. A lot of dead nerds. -Yes. -Dead cyclist nerds. -Thats [unk] I think. -And possibly. All right. -Did you take this picture of your cat with Google Glass? I mean you wanted to show-- -No. I didnt. I wanted to make sure that-- -Little Caterpillar here. -Yes. Everyone, all the 404 listeners need to, the most important thing thats happened to me since I was last in the 404 was that I adopted Caterpillar. -Oh. -Caterpillar. -I did not take that picture with Glass. That is however a real parakeet sitting on her. -So are they-- is this like they have a relationship these two. -No, they actually dont really like each other very much because Caterpillar is scared of birds. -But you were able to capture that one moment. -That one moment. -Yes. -Before Caterpillar ate the-- -No. Caterpillar has killed maybe 1 bug. -Oh really? -Shes practically a vegetarian. -I was gonna say the next photo in the series she just be like the same exact photo. -Her with some feathers in her mouth. -With some feathers in her mouth. Thats what that should be. -Yes. Shes not really very bloodthirsty. -No? Okay, thats good. -Yes. -Yes, you too with your cat. Thats great. -Yes. -Having so many animals in your house just doesnt seem conducive for working at home though. -Oh. well I only have a cat. The bird is not mine. -Oh, okay. -She was visiting a friend, so-- -Oh, really? -I wouldnt have a pet bird. -Im sorry, but is that like an insult to take you for a bird owner? -Yes. -Yes. Oh. -I dont know-- -Oh yes. -No offense to bird owners but Ive been around birds and I think theyre annoying. Theyre not particularly personable except the kinds that talk. I prefer that kinds that talk actually can, you know, can really, you know, relate to you. -Yes. -Yes. -Im not a bird person. -Oh. I just yes. I mean and again sorry to anyone who owns one of these creatures, but its just like why? -Yes. -Right. Why? Just get a freaking aquarium. -Yes. -You know what I mean? Its the same thing. -Im also getting really tired of people posting bird photo like bird videos of their parakeets like covering songs on YouTube. Have you seen these? Theyre like oh that Nickelback song. -That sounds kind of awesome. -Michael Jackson songs. -My parakeet covering Nickelback sounds like something youd have at like Guantanamo. -Yes. -Yes, yes. Exactly. Right? -Its bad. Theres one that was-- who does that song Let the Bodies to the Floor. -Oh, that was like- -Was that Puddle, POD? -Puddle of Mudd? -POD. -Something like-- -No, no, no. It was like some really other weird band like a Drowning Dog. -Theres a good video. Drowning Pool. -The Drowning Pool. Yes. -Okay. -We shouldnt know that. -We should not know that. -Yes. -Thats like the Matt-- weird Matt Pinfield thing we have. Yes. I dont wanna see a bird doing that. -No. -Are you kidding me? -You can look it up on YouTube. -No way. -Oh, its there. -Screw that. -Im not gonna watch any of these. -So whats it like working from home? I mean you worked in so many-- -Yes. -I mean well its funny because self-employment is like there are things that are just sort of like duh moments where you didnt realize it until youre actually in that situation like Im gonna have to get a landline because my apartment has one corner of cell reception and it happens to be the same corner next to a window that borders an elementary school playground. I also potentially could just use Skype most of the time, just use it like a SkypeOut number. -Yes. -But at the same time its like wow I have and freelancing is much more phone call based than working at a corporation because often you have remote lines and stuff. -Right. -And then also my first few days, I way, way, way, way overscheduled meetings. Ive canceled so many meetings over the past 2 weeks. -Youre learning a lot by yourself, huh? -Yes. Because I mean if all your meetings arent in the same office, you have to take into account travel time, the ct that you and the other person with whom youre meeting may not be in total agreement over how long the meeting is going to be and things like that. And so just all sorts of and then like 2 nights ago I was on Twitter and I was just like guys project management software, I dont know the first place to start because you spend enough time at Google like youre using G Calendar, youre using Drive and youre using all this stuff. Its pretty much just all laid out for you and everybody uses the same stuff but Im like I need a to-do list. I need project management software. I have no idea where to start. -Yes. -So-- -What am I doing? -Yes. Lots of big questions. I mean there have been books written about you know how to manage a freelance life and stuffing them like maybe those are written 5 years ago. I mean-- -Right. -Do these tools exist so-- -And there all of a sudden irrelevant. -Yes. Im using Trello now. -Okay. -Which everyone highly recommends. I have to just make sure I actually put my tasks in it-- -Yes. -Which is the hard part. -Yes. I find that too like obviously Im not involved in my own sort of project management though in the depth that you are, but I have a lot of crap I gotta do. -Yes. -And you wanna have a way to digitally organize all that. -Yes, absolutely. -Ive been starting to use Keep a little bit. -Keep. Okay. -Google Keep. -Yes. -You know what that is of course. -Yes. -I was doing Astrid for a while, you know, Astrid Tasks. -I dont. -Another sort of like web-based Cloud sort of thing going on with your phone and what-not? -Yes. -Still havent found something that I really dig though. -Yes. -I dont know. -Have you used TaskRabbit at all? One of my friends has used it. -I have. -Its like that crowd source service funding thing. -Its funny because I have used TaskRabbit. I actually hired somebody to come and like assemble a bike or something like that, because I just didnt wanna do it. Actually once another time I was meeting some people upstate. -Yes. -To go hiking and noticed that the Trailways bus schedule wasnt working out so I hired a TaskRabbit to drag me to Westchester. -Right. College kids, right? They should just rename it College Kids. -Yes. I mean well, but the funny thing is that Ive had a couple of TaskRabbit tasks lately and Ive had a tougher time filling them. -Yes. -And I dont know if thats because theyre some like secret language-- -Yes. -Or like things that make a good TaskRabbit posting or not, but I have not used it recently but when I did use it kind of early on, it was you know, oh great. -Right on. -But yes. I think I was trying to like ship something recently and-- -No, do it. -They like to-- so you get somebody to drive a large object across town and get any takers. -Yes. -Let me know. I got a big rack on my bike. I could do that stuff for you. -Yes. Hell do it. -Ill give you a discount. -It was like a giant TV monitor though. -Yes. Hes got a flower basket. -I could do that. -Its cool. Its fine. -Okay. -It doesnt have to work by the time it gets there right, because as long as its there at the end of the time thats all that matters. -In one piece thats fine. -Yes. -Thats how TaskRabbit works. -I wanna talk about real quick going back to Google and your time working there, you said that they didnt require you to switch to Android. -Theres no company-wide policy saying that employees must use Android. I mean-- -Thats kind of cool. -I think its very cool. -Yes. -I mean I have heard about-- -A lot of respect for that. -People at certain other companies that manucture mobile phone software where you can basically get fired for using the wrong software even if its one of those companies that makes-- -Lets narrow that list. -An OS that glows. -Yes. -Yes. -Narrow that list down and try to, but the thing is, is that I think that I wouldve been strongly encouraged to use Android as my primary device if I had been on a team that relied upon, you know, knowing the latest thing-- -Sure. -Worked directly but I think even-- -It would make sense. -Even among engineers I didnt know anybody who had an iOS device unless they were, you know, working on Google apps for iOS but they would at least primarily use an Android but in kind of the business side. I have an Android. It was never my primary device and I like and respect that the company is not quite so like-- -Thats very, very-- -Lets do this. It was very progressive of them. -Yes. I appreciate that. You wanna take the question from the chat room? -Okay. -This is not-- dont worry. Were not gonna grill you. -All right. -Beat Master wants to know what the vibe was inside Google. What was your day to day like? -Day to day, it was interesting because its big and there are all kinds of workspaces around the office that arent peoples desks. -Yes. -And so you could kind of you know my team is extremely work-at-home friendly. Mostly we would you know if we didnt have any meetings we often would work from home except I mean if you wanna go to Google because theres free food. -Yes. -It felt internally its extremely academic feeling. There are you know books everywhere. -You feel like youre in college. -And kind of learning-- you feel like youre in college except in college wasnt like one giant building. -Sure. -Really very friendly, very not-- it was interestingly it was not very, you know it was pretty quiet except on sort of like the business and sales side of things and most of that went on in Chelsea Market, so like if you were ever in that building, it would be much, much, much more intense, totally different feel there. -Yes. -But among kind of the more product and engineering side-- -Yes. -It would really chill. -Yes. -I mean like on the 10th floor there was a lounge where there was just a big video game setup and you can take a break, play some games, just really clearly designed to make people feel comfortable so that you know theyre okay with long days and with working really hard at night. I thought it was funny because after I worked at Google, somebody joked to me like, Oh, so youre gonna have to do real work now, right? You know and I was like you think we dont work hard at Google? I was working harder than ever at my life. -Yes. -But yes. They try to make it a very comfortable working environment-- -Sure. -Because you are gonna be working long days. Its definitely hard work. -What was the most surprising thing there? Like what was one thing-- Im sure you had an impression of what was it gonna be like going into the job. -Yes. -But throughout your 2 years there-- -Yes. -What were you sort of like taking aback by? -I was surprised about by the culture of email lists internally. -Okay. -Googlers can create Google Groups for just about anything. -Yes. -And they are a really vital part of company culture and theyre like kind of how in a lot of ways things tick and things happen. And so theres like an internal exchange for like New York apartment lists and requests, and actually the reason why I have Caterpillar is because a Googler needed to give her up. And so there were just all kinds of you know lists for literally every interest group you could imagine. And it really, you know, it really adds a lot I think to the experience. You get to know other employees. There is a list of home brewers who would have beer club. They booked a conference room like every Wednesday after work hours-- -Sure. -And not like 9 in the morning. They would do beer tasting, would book a conference room for it. And I dont brew my own beer but I certainly appreciate people who do. And so I would sometimes you know show up with you know a bottle of like some ncy dogfish blend or something and be like hey guys, can I try your beer? So the very much kind of a culture of like getting to know other employees and contacts other than work. That was very cool and I thought very surprising. -It sounds like Google is kind of like a commune like within itself. -Thats an interesting way to put it. Yes. -Right? Like I just watch Wicker Man recently so Im like I have that theme in my head. -Oh, its not like that. Its not like that. -Im sure youre not burning things inside the office, but I mean just in terms of like the ecosystem, it sounds like everyone gets to know each other really well. -Yes and they kind of pioneered a lot of the sort of open office formats that you see in startups and stuff like that. -Yes. -You can also take your dog to work. There is sometimes I would see-- this was rare, but when it happened it was funny. You would see a conference room with just a dog running around in it or really like you know sleeping or something like that because somebody might bring a dog to work and then you have a meeting where they couldnt take the dog, and so they would have to book one conference room for the meeting and another conference room for the dog. -Wow. Thats awesome. -And-- -Do you have the number for the HR person over at Google? -Yes, seriously. What? That would be awesome. -Google.com/jobs. -That would be great. -When will we have Wi-Fi in this office? -We do. -We do. Im on it. -And Marty would be awesome here, man. -Yes. -You should bring him in. You think we can-- -Are dogs allowed in this building? -Were gonna find out. Were gonna find out. -I could bring Caterpillar. -I could also sneeze at it for 3-1/2 hours. -Usually, people, she doesnt shed very much because she loves being brushed. -Right. -So shes a pretty clean cat. -Im kind of blown away, your relationship with this cat. -Shes my spirit animal. -Yes. -Shes my cat. -Yes. So thats the extent of your relationships these days? -Thats yes. -Yes? Okay. -Well Im thinking about theres this kitten who needs adoption. -Yes. -And shes really, really cute and Ill actually get a second cat and my friends are just like no. -I mean-- -Like then youre a cat lady. -The threshold-- -I think the threshold is 3 cats, not 2. I think 2 cats is like-- -I think its 1. -1 cat and youre a cat lady? -Yes. No after a while. -Is this her? -Thats her. -Oh my God, Crusher the kitten. -Look at that. -Look at that ce. -Its so-- -Look at that. How can you-- -The cat just looks like-- -What am I doing here? -Yes. -Yes. -I dont know. No. Still not, still, still-- -Yes. -You know what I see there? -What? -I see a box of Kleenex. Thats what I see right there. -What? -Because thats whats gonna happen because I just-- my eyes they-- -Yes, yes. -They puff up. Its terrible. -Yes. Well, you can have dogs on the air. -Yes, all right. -I was actually-- I tweeted today. Im going to D.C. this weekend to go to one of my long-time close friends engagement party, since Im staying over in D.C. and Im staying at a Kimpton Hotel and I was looking at the Kimpton website. Theyre a chain based out of San Francisco and they have an open pet policy. Any pet, any breed, any size, no questions asked. -Wow. -And so they havent responded to my tweet yet, but I was like well whats the weirdest pet somebody has brought in like I mean they say that you can bring a cat, you can bring a do
